Is Windows 7 more secure than 8?

[Super Fast]

http://www.h-online....ck-1742332.html

 

Seems that Windows 8 has already been compromised, & it hasn't even been out that long.

From what I can tell, it states that ALL of 8's security has been compromised. This is bad...

 

I'd say 7 is more secure, but others may disagree. I have heard that 8 uses data sharing between tiles (can't be good) as well as other things.

While 7 does have nice features, I don't believe sharing data between tiles, browsers, etc. does anything for security.

 

What's your opinion, please? Is 7 more secure than 8, or do you think they are about the same?

[hazelnut]

What kind of security company refuses to disclose info on exploits? I think I would take this with a pinch of salt, some of it may be true but not the fact that ALL of Win 8 in now full of holes.

 

As for the tiles sharing info, that is what they are supposed to do, sync your data with all your devices so it can be accessed anywhere.

 

If you don't want that don't sign in with a Microsoft account, instead use a standard account.

[Super Fast]

That may well be true.

 

I just thought this was really interesting.

 

I shall hold off on 8 for the moment, waiting for the bugs to be squashed & see how it fares on the high seas of security for a few months.

I rather not update till I know for certain it is at least as secure as XP or 7.

 

 

Edit: But I may download their trial version of it from time to time when they update their offer, just for the sake of testing what it does.

[Guest Keatah]

I tend to think Win7 and XP are more secure, for now. They've been out in the field for some time. With Win8 - who knows what's in the bag?

 

I tell my clients (mainly home users and small mom'n'pop operations) 4 key things.

 

1- Backup, make a plan and follow it.

2- Visit smart & legit websites.

3- Security is a partnership between you and your O/S vendor. Work together. Auto-updates on, unless you have a specific reason not to. Alternatively, you may disable auto-updates and run them manually during a maintenance cycle if you've got a mission critical machine that needs to be always on.

4- If you want to switch to anything new, wait a while till the bugs are uncovered and worked out. This includes software, hardware, o/s..

[Andavari]

What's your opinion, please? Is 7 more secure than 8, or do you think they are about the same?

 

Remember who the OS is by and the track record of security holes! So updates Tuesday will still be on the never-ending monthly calendar to squash security holes.

[Guest Keatah]

With the infighting present in Microsoft, Windows-8, a child of that environment, isn't going to be a big hit like XP and 7. It will take another generation or two before we've got an in-demand whiz-bang O/S. And security is no exception.

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/teamwork-microsofts-new-mantra-after-sinofskys-departure-1C7121763

[Corona]

Win 7 had a whole slew of updates yesterday.

[pwillener]

I think W8 is going the way of ME and Vista; nobody wants it. It will certainly not make it into the business environment.

[Guest Keatah]

And then they'll announce the return of the classic start menu amidst great fanfare, for Win-9. But, really, the most secure operating system is the system that has been characterized and has a long list of do's and don'ts. The most secure o/s is the one you know best.

[Andavari]

The most secure o/s is the one you know best.

 

True, that and the endless security patches which I'd think every Windows OS user is rather sick of.

[Nergal]

True, that and the endless security patches which I'd think every Windows OS user is rather sick of.

I find that any OS I've dealt with has a slew of security updates. I've said it before and will say it again all code can be comprisable it's just a matter of who finds the cracks in the code first

[Guest Keatah]

On one of my systems, an older system, which is mission critical - I do regular quarterly maintenance to it. This means every three months -

 

1) Backup the system

2) Manually initiated auto-update session, and while that's in progress I'll go through and selectively update the utilities and applications.

3) A CCleaner run

4) Ultimate Defrag run

 

I do this to ensure that there are no hidden surprises with stability or incompatibilities. Never had a problem. And there are no interruptions or untimely resets or slowdowns due to auto-update. But yet, I can enjoy the benefits of quarterly improvements.

 

For me this works out most excellent!

[Super Fast]

@Keatah... Can you tell much difference between a run of Defraggler & Ultimate Defrag?

 

Just wondering... I have ultimate defrag lying around somewhere, but never got around to testing the performance just yet.

[Nergal]

Please discuss any differences in private per forum guidelines. Thanks

[Guest Keatah]

Microsoft is reporting underperforming sales of Windows8. This is because of ergonomics. But no one seems to have any security related concerns.

[Super Fast]

There are 3 reasons 8 is selling slower than it's predecessors...

 

1) Market Saturation -> Now, almost everyone has a PC with a stable OS that isn't prone to cross-linked files, cussing, & repairs.

2) Stability -> Hardware + Software that is decently optimized & doesn't crash for extended periods. Sometimes even a few weeks or months!!! Yay...

3) Stagnation -> After the 1st rounds of product activation/suing customers into the dirt/price gouging licenses/false positives that called customers theives, companies are in no hurry for a repeat. In fact, they rather enjoy being able to have a stable system that for just once, works. Taking the time to relearn an OS, reload all software to newer OS, retraining employees across the board to use the new OS & be familiar with it & the new options, whew!!!! Companies are clinging to what they already know works. Having to rebuy, relicense, relearn, retrain, & re-try-to-understand-all-the-new-legalese-changes-and-terms have the heads in charge short circuiting a brain cell or two.

 

At least if they stick with the old that they know, maybe they won't be sued for violating some oddity they failed to catch with the new draconian license terms.

By the time you figure out what your legally allowed to do (which isn't much, apparently), it might not make sense to do anything at all!!!

 

Whoops! Brain overloaded. 20 years of ever changing OS landscapes, licenses, terms, agreements with 200+ pages of legalese have me practically steaming in my grave before I kick the bucket. LOL!

 

Well, that's all folks, & that's my take on things.

 

What do you have to say?

 

Edit: I should have stated under market saturation that everyone with internet has ACCESS to a stable OS (Ubuntu, other freebies). Thanks Nergal.

[Guest Keatah]

I know the entertainment industry likes suing downloaders and torrent sites. Especially pr0n material. It's as taboo to watch it as it is to download it. You're pretty much being tracked through multiple mechanisms. Download enough of that material and you're gonna get caught by a copyright troll. Scum chasing scum. But I haven't heard about many lawsuits on the software side of things - unless it's piracy by a business or for profit. I've not heard of Microsoft or Adobe prosecuting the individual, not-for-proft, personal use piracy. Anyone know of examples?

 

Regarding the rapid change of pace. It's too fast, really. I'm happy with XP and 7. I just don't see a need to move to 8, especially not of my own accord.

 

No thanks. I'm just sticking with what works. You've got to understand that a new os means more than just learning its conventions. A new os means you have to do the upgrade itself and includes time spent on security patches, updates, learning the new os, installing and re-installing software, testing for business-critical stability, old software compatibility, driver compatibility with existing hardware, new applications.. All these things and more. And if you don't actually do the upgrade because you bought a new system with the new os pre-installed, you've still got to re-build and re-integrate your existing desktop, applications, and userdata into the new ecosystem. All the while maintaining security and learning the new rules accompany a new os.

 

And sometimes security gets in the way of you finding and organizing your files and data in a fashion that you understand. I deal with users all the time that don't know the difference between local and off-site storage. Or local disk vs. NAS vs. datacenter.

 

That's a lot to handle when you gotta do it all by yourself and be productive and maintain security. Geeks are excluded, because they'll happily spend Saturday night looking for drivers and running benchmarks.

[Nergal]

1) Market Saturation -> Now, almost everyone has a PC with a stable OS that isn't prone to cross-linked files, cussing, & repairs.

2) Stability -> Hardware + Software that is decently optimized & doesn't crash for extended periods. Sometimes even a few weeks or months!!! Yay...

3) Stagnation -> After the 1st rounds of product activation/suing customers into the dirt/price gouging

 

super fast I'm not too sure from whence you gain your market assessment but…you are terrible at it.

 

1) most people can't afford a computer (worldwide, or just the US) nor do most have the requisite internet access as that too they can not afford.

2) ??? All computer-devices crash. Most do so due to user misuse. No idea if you're being serious or not but either way your logic remain flawed.

3) I do not think this word means what you think http://www.thefreedictionary.com/stagnation

 

4) mobile 99% of what the public needs (outside of the marketplace) done can be done via mobiles and tablets. They are (or rather seem) less expensive in both laydown and arguably upkeep (factoring in home internet, software that costs ~10× etc). An ipod or a Samsung Galaxy is all most people need.

5) people are reluctant to try something new, and instead of selling it as a building upon of Windows7 (which they have just finished pushing people into…actual still finishing rather) they've glossed over this a sang "new new new". I've said it a number of times. Lack of aereo aside, I forget I'm not still using 7.

 

off hand I want all readers to know, even with all of his hating on windows 8 threads, as of this posting Super Fast has not been using windows 8 in any appreciable manner and has only within the last few weeks even taken the time to "test" windows seven (by which he admits to mean what can I shoehorn from this into a dead buggy XP making it more buggy (see point 2 above)

Edited November 20, 2012 by Nergal
grammar and word fix. Added clarification to point 4

[Guest Keatah]

I believe that Super Fast is telling us that every existing PC owner is using a modern filing system. And that we've left behind cross-link prone systems like FAT. It is common sense to know that not everyone in the world has a PC.

 

Most, but not all, computing devices crash. There have been times I used to run my Apple II series computer for months on end without having to reboot or power-cycle the machine. Things were very simple back then. The operating system was typically around 24k bytes in size, this encompassed a BASIC interpreter, a monitor (not a display device, but ML/assembly monitor), and a program to control the disk drive(DOS 3.3). This machine harks back to a time when one single person could know everything there is to know about the system. Heck, the system *was* designed by one person. Yep. Woz did both the hardware and software for the early 2 series.

 

Did you know that the above paragraph is 2X longer than the firmware on the disk drive controller of an Apple 2 series computer? Ha! As far as I can tell, this little bit of firmware has never crashed ever. Nor have any of the Atari VCS game consoles. They are simple enough to where they either work or they do not work.

 

Well, I've had my copy of XP running for weeks on end. Sometimes suspending or hibernating it from time to time. But I don't need to reboot it much. On the other hand, I'd always difficulty with win95/98. Constantly restarting those systems. Memory leaks and lockups - all due to sloppy hybrid 16-bit code. I had the most trouble when using memory intensive software or gaming things. Stuff that swapped screen resolutions and paged out to the HDD. Pack FAT into the mix, and sure you've got crosslinked files and disk inconsistencies all over the place. Once I got into using NTFS over the past 15 years, I can count the number of corrupted files I lost on one hand.

 

Stagnation?? Bad choice of words. More like a frustration and inertia. Businesses are going to do their best to ensure ROI. And changing operating systems every 2 years is not the way to go here. Not even for the home user. Much of this rapid pace of introducing new OS'es comes from a need to make profit. For me, there is little benefit to upgrade presently.

 

Now:

I have very little experience with Windows 8. Certainly not enough to condone or condemn it. I just condemn the constant upgrading process and ensuing hassles. Much of my clientele is running XP and 7. The most common things I get asked about when a user wants to get on 8 bandwagon is -

 

1- What's the anti-virus like? Just be sure MSE is running and you're fine.

2- Where's the start menu? In this case I refer them to any number of 3rd party utilities that restore that functionality.

3- Will my old applications run? My answer is most likely yes, in the event they don't, upgrade them, or use a virtual machine running XP or 7.

4- What about my printer? Will it work? I advise them to try it, check with the mfg. for drivers if needed.

[Super Fast]

super fast I'm not too sure from whence you gain your market assessment but…you are terrible at it.

 

off hand I want all readers to know, even with all of his hating on windows 8 threads, as of this posting Super Fast has not been using windows 8 in any appreciable manner and has only within the last few weeks even taken the time to "test" windows seven (by which he admits to mean what can I shoehorn from this into a dead buggy XP making it more buggy (see point 2 above)

 

Offhand, I want you to know that I have used Windows 8, but I found that when I installed it to my netbook that it complained the screen was too small, not the right resolution, & I had various other problems that I shall not list here. So, I reverted to 7. Perhaps not permanently, as I do intend to re-test 8 again after I have enough fixes for some of the problems I discovered together. I do not have a hatred per say of 8, just a dislike of the way some things do not work (at the moment). That may change with more testing/etc.

 

You should never re-interpret what you think a user means, or does, or says. I know it can be confusing that I mentioned about using 7 earlier, but that does not mean I did not use Windows 8. Not that I have used Win 8 as long as 7, for it has not been out as long as 7 or XP. That's to be expected. I confess that my replies are a bit brief at times, so I shall work on including more data in the future, if that is your wish.

 

I do appreciate your vast smart phone knowledge, & yes, XP does have a few bugs such as the one that causes Explorer to begin slowing in a directory with more than 3,000 files in it, & to blatantly crash with more than 5,000. You can use other programs to work around XP's buggy shell.

 

I may eventually test another explorer shell to replace the one in XP with a more modern variant that can handle more files.

 

Sure, XP is old & has bugs, but that does not mean other OS don't either. Don't count it out yet, because it may be possible to fix XP!!!

 

Edit: I think you mis-understood what I meant by everyone having a stable OS. Ubuntu is free, so everyone with internet access is free to download it. Perhaps I should have stated that everyone with internet access has the capability to download & use a stable OS.

 

Sorry for the mis-understanding here, & thanks for pointing that out so I could correct it.

[Super Fast]

And then they'll announce the return of the classic start menu amidst great fanfare, for Win-9. But, really, the most secure operating system is the system that has been characterized and has a long list of do's and don'ts. The most secure o/s is the one you know best.

 

Since Windows 98 does not run programs in separate memory spaces, & uses the very limited FAT32 file system, I doubt that knowing it inside & out will ever make it more secure or stable than an NTFS based OS that does run programs in separate memory spaces, such as Windows 2000 & higher.

 

Cross-linked files & blue screens of death were common in 95/98/ME, because of programs over-writing each other, instead of having their own space.

[mta]

just to get back on topic and answer the original point of the thread "is 7 more secure than 8?"

surely the simple answer is Yes and No.

 

Yes; because 7 is years old and had all the updates to plug any holes

No; because those same updates should be pre-installed in 8 plus as Nergal stats in #18, 8 is the new 7. once you get past Metro it's so similar it's not funny. (but i've only been using 8 RC for about 6 months so not sure if they changed much in the final 8 release)

 

just as they took huge swags of code from Vista to make 7, they have done the same with 7 to make 8.

 

so if someone is reading this thread and trying to decide if 8 is worth the plunge, IMO it certainly wouldn't be a show-stopper if a new PC came pre-installed with 8.

 

go for it!

[Super Fast]

I wouldn't say that 8 is more secure than 7, until it has been battle tested.

 

Huge swaths of code have changed around. Saying that 8 is an armored tank, when it might get tanked by casual script kiddies is a joke.

That is not to say that 8 may not be more secure, but until it has been battle tested, it's like saying that someone invented a better bullet proof vest (without testing).

 

Sure, I believe MS subjected 8 to internal tests, but those tests are far different from the scary real world.

_____

 

At the moment, I am inclined to stay with 7, until 8 proves its mettle against hackers, viruses, & the online menagerie of nasties.

 

It may take a year, or multiple years. Even so, a win may be in-conclusive.

It may even happen that someone believes they know an OS inside & out, only to be embarrassed by some simple trick that is least expected which brings a system down.

 

How do you think Pwn-to-Own operates?

_____

 

Will be really interesting to see how Windows 8 + IE 10 fares in next years pwn-to-own...

_____

 

I hope 7 wins. Not because I hate 8, but I'm used to 7. And I like it. And I hope it's secure.

[mta]

heard a nice adage once; "opinions are like armpits - everyone has them and thinks everyone elses stinks"

 

i think this thread falls in there nicely somewhere.

everybody is going to have his/her personal reasons for swinging one way or the other.

 

don't think we'll get a definitive winner on win7 or win8 any time soon....

[Super Fast]

don't think we'll get a definitive winner on win7 or win8 any time soon....

 

That may be, but I do love hearing the opinions of other people, because you always learn from people.

_____

 

I have heard that some promote the idea of 8 being more secure because of a built in antivirus.

 

I am not sure this is so, because if it is not "on" by default before doing a Windows Update, people may not use it.

Additionally, even though Windows supposedly takes a back seat & lets you use your own A/V, what happens if you install one that Windows doesn't detect as an A/V, then it deletes parts of your A/V? Or if a user simply only wants ONE A/V installed, but they have to have MS version installed also?

 

I contend that while MS security essentials is ok, there are many better programs. So, forcing users to use a half baked a/v is bad because it is hit & miss + bloatware. It may even cause malware writers to target MS security essentials, over-writing MS security essential critical files with their own custom variants, that turn MS Security Essentials into THE malware, & make it give erroneous messages/delete user files/other, while being almost impossible to kill off or delete.

 

For this reason, I hold that it is/may be safer for users to install their own a/v.

_____

 

Have also heard others applaud secure boot for W8, but my disinterest in that stems from the following that will probably happen.

 

1) Make it harder for to use custom boot scenarios (Bootable CD/DVD for troubleshooting), or Linux/Ubuntu/ReactOS freeware (anti-competitive, as well).

2) Malware writers will write advanced malware that is able to "secure boot" that now has total control of Windows, & makes getting rid of it even more of a pain.

 

I remember when MS was thinking that because 64 bit systems require signed drivers, it will help block malware. And some rootkits can't run in 64 bits, because it is more secure. That turned out very laughable, because I have seen 64 bit 7 severely compromised, with the same sorts of rootkits/toolbars/malware/popups/hosts file redirects as their 32 bit cousins.

 

The only thing that ended up happening, is it made 64 bit much harder to work on for the average person, because they may not be able to just use a driver backup program (doesn't save the driver signature while backing them up) to restore missing drivers if they do a clean install. But most people will have to download the drivers from the manufacturer website.

 

Additionally, it may make clearing the hosts file & doing certain other tasks a bit more difficult because of restrictions in place.

_____

 

Not saying isn't admirable to try to make Windows more secure, but from what I've seen so far, malware writers are abusing MS "security" functions for laughs.

 

Anyone who has worked on a number of PC's knows about this, as I have myself encounters the following types of problems with malware/rootkits.

 

1) Windows running abysmally slow (for no apparent reason).

2) User(s) locked out from using tasks manager/regedit/other.

3) User(s) blocked from using normal programs (ccleaner/norton/avg/mcafee/panda/defraggler/etc) because malware claimed those are "infections".

4) Malware that sets itself as "default a/v" & promptly reminds you that you already have an a/v installed if you try to use a legit program to remove it.

5) Redirectors that cause computers to permanently loop & go to any webpage but the one your trying to get to, regardless of browser used (hosts file hijacks).

 

Many, many others that would take too long to list here.

 

I am sure that MS really meant good by allowing admin to be able to block users from using task manager/regedit/other functions of Windows.

But I am also just as sure that malware is making a mockery of that.

 

Users are being locked out of using their own PC every day, by malware writers that know Windows more than they do.

Ransomware even holds them hostage & demands $200 settlement, (hey, we got your laptop webcam on too, so we are recording you). Etc.

 

Scareware.

 

It's nuts man, it really is!