Angry Ccleaner user here.

[Beavis]

 

Did you know that CCleaner breaks the uninstalling of WMP11 and IE7. I dind't and it looks like I'm not the only

one. I know it's my fault but there really should be a clearer warning of what each tick box does in the Cleaner tab.

 

http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/de...owsmedia.player

[spelbynder]

there ya go kiddies, a prime example of WHY you shouldn't install software when it's still in beta testing stage!! (says he, who briefly did try Office 2007)

[Tarun]

You removed the Hotfix Uninstallers. Unfortunately IE7 and WMP11 are installed as hotfixes for the betas. There is a fix available here on the forums however.

[krit86lr]

there ya go kiddies, a prime example of WHY you shouldn't install software when it's still in beta testing stage!! (says he, who briefly did try Office 2007)

 

Even more to the point. Why you shouldn't install Betaware if you don't know the proper way to do so. It is the user's responsibility to make a backup before installing betaware. With betaware there is always the risk of needing a backup.

 

Yes, we all have known for quite awhile that CCleaner will remove the uninstallers for IE7 and WMP, if and only if you tick the box marked 'hotfix uninstallers' because those beta programs are hotfixes, which I think is a poor choice on MS's part.

 

If you are using IE7 Beta 2 there is an Uninstaller uploaded on the forum. If you are using Beta 3 then you are out of luck. CCleaner has been modified in the current version to ignore the IE7 Hotfix Uninstallers.

 

All the best.

[Andavari]

Blame Microsoft!

 

If they would start doing things in proper fashion by actually having a real uninstaller without the constant bulls**t of having end-users jump through hoops then it wouldn't even be an issue. Would it?

 

IE7 Beta and WMP 11 Beta aren't the only apps in the illustrious MS history that don't have an uninstaller, there are in fact a number of MS apps that are a royal pain to get rid of without some third-party offering an uninstall parameter or an uninstaller such as the recent dubious and unclear installation of Windows Genuine Advantage Notifications which isn't a security update and has to be removed by a third-party app called RemoveWGA, which happens to work very well.

[zachdms]

there ya go kiddies, a prime example of WHY you shouldn't install software when it's still in beta testing stage!!

 

It's not really their fault, though - unless you're referring to CCleaner. Everything should work fine until CCleaner deletes the uninstall/rollback files.

 

You removed the Hotfix Uninstallers. Unfortunately IE7 and WMP11 are installed as hotfixes for the betas. There is a fix available here on the forums however.

 

Could you clarify the definition of "installed as hotfixes"? I think the confusion here is that CCleaner was (is?) deleting "%windir%\$NTUninstall*$" - that is not the definition of a hotfix, really - that's just an uninstall/restore folder naming convention. If you break apart an update.exe package, you can see how this is all set up, and the folder naming and folder deletion here is fairly arbitrary on both sides (MS and CCleaner). There's nothing fundamentally wrong with what MS is doing - the CCleaner analysis of what constituted a hotfix restore folder needed to be tightened. I'm interested in knowing what the specifics of the new change are.

 

 

If they would start doing things in proper fashion by actually having a real uninstaller without the constant bulls**t of having end-users jump through hoops then it wouldn't even be an issue. Would it?

 

IE7 Beta and WMP 11 Beta aren't the only apps in the illustrious MS history that don't have an uninstaller

That's not particularly true. WMP11 offers two uninstall routes - the standard Update.exe restore, and a System Restore entry point. If you stomp on one, you should have the other unless you have also stomped on or turned that off too. I'm not sure what else you would want here - two methods is usually one method more than any other applications offer.

 

There's a minor change or two pending on this area that will show up in a later build of WMP11 than you have now that will make things easier. But the absolute critical thing here is that we all need CCleaner to not delete the WMP11 restore files. I can "fix" this on my side by doing something a little non-standard, but it's really sad. I'm here to see what the CCleaner fix is and what can be done to ensure that everybody has the best possible solution here.

 

 

I work (at MS) on the code in question here, and find this area fairly fascinating. I definitely want uninstall/rollback/restore to work for people. If the restore files are not deleted by CCleaner, this all should work fine. If not, that is a bug that should be fixed by the WMP team - if you post details at microsoft.public.windowsmedia.player , I'll generally take a look at it there (please bear in mind that I also have a bunch of development work to do, so can never respond instantly nor offer personal support) and see what data I can glean from uninstall failure reports. But if you're run the old version of CCleaner that deleted the WMP restore files, you pretty much are limited to System Restore as a rollback/restore method for your previous version. Or, as suggested elsewhere in regards to IE7b2, you can copy someone else's restore files and hope.

[Andavari]

A simple program files folder for the installation would suffice with a proper uninstall routine, namely an uninstall.exe file along with either an uninstall.dat/install.dat, or uninstall.ini/install.ini file for the source files installed so the uninstaller would know exactly what to remove.

 

Don't forget people were and probably still are manually deleting the \Windows\NtUninstall folders in the first place, CCleaner just offered a quicker way of removing them.

 

I'm here to see what the CCleaner fix is and what can be done to ensure that everybody has the best possible solution here.

 

You need to contact the CCleaner developer MrG via a PM then. There's no sense in this being public and all because I think someone is bound to get pissed off.

[Tarun]

Could you clarify the definition of "installed as hotfixes"? I think the confusion here is that CCleaner was (is?) deleting "%windir%\$NTUninstall*$" - that is not the definition of a hotfix, really - that's just an uninstall/restore folder naming convention. If you break apart an update.exe package, you can see how this is all set up, and the folder naming and folder deletion here is fairly arbitrary on both sides (MS and CCleaner). There's nothing fundamentally wrong with what MS is doing - the CCleaner analysis of what constituted a hotfix restore folder needed to be tightened. I'm interested in knowing what the specifics of the new change are.

 

I should have clarified that I meant it was with CCleaner.

[zachdms]

A simple program files folder for the installation would suffice with a proper uninstall routine, namely an uninstall.exe file along with either an uninstall.dat/install.dat, or uninstall.ini/install.ini file for the source files installed so the uninstaller would know exactly what to remove.

I don't think we necessarily get into the theories of installer/uninstaller design. I've been in the field for about ten years, have worked with everything from Jet's old tools to NSIS, designed several... - everything's got its pluses and minuses.

 

It shouldn't come as an surprise to you that for MS XP packages, update.exe and MSI are the chief Microsoft installers at this time, which means that correspondingly those uninstall/rollback/restore methods must be used. These will work fine provided that external forces don't nuke them from space, as it were.

 

Anyways, the argument of how an uninstall should be designed properly isn't an argument that you or I are going to make any headway on - there's teams of smart people working on that technology. What you see is how WMP11 is going to work. What we're interested in now is CCleaner working as smoothly as possible for users.

 

Don't forget people were and probably still are manually deleting the \Windows\NtUninstall folders in the first place, CCleaner just offered a quicker way of removing them.

You need to contact the CCleaner developer MrG via a PM then. There's no sense in this being public and all because I think someone is bound to get pissed off.

 

Yeah, if people want to take their system into their own hands, it's fairly clear to them what they've done. Unfortunately, it's also apparent that people aren't clearly understanding that the CCleaner definition of "hotfix uninstaller" is "update.exe installed packages" - it's an understandable simplification that causes pretty significant user pain.

 

As regards PM/forums -- it doesn't matter to me either way. Here I am, nicely available. I also run a web site and have made myself pretty available (for a Microsoft developer, at least ) via my website and participation in online forums. I completely understand the simple route that CCleaner took, but - per my other other post, think it probably should be tweaked. You and I both want WMP and CCleaner to do the right thing for users here. We're all on the same page - all we need now is to work together.

[krit86lr]

All that I have to say about this at this point is that MrG is very open to suggestions. He was informed about CCleaner removing the IE7 Beta 3 uninstaller and the seriousness and modified the most recent version of CCleaner to ignore that specific uninstaller now. I'm sure that he wouldn't mind doing the same for WMP, BUT I personally don't see this at a serious issue.

 

Honestly, I haven't read the release notes on WMP Beta, but my guess would be that one could use someone else's uninstaller? Also, I think that it's necessary to take into account that not many 3rd party apps tailor for Beta software.

 

Also, I have to agree with Andavari that MS's method of locating "program" uninstallers for beta software is currently not appropriate.

 

 

rant over

[zachdms]

Honestly, I haven't read the release notes on WMP Beta, but my guess would be that one could use someone else's uninstaller? Also, I think that it's necessary to take into account that not many 3rd party apps tailor for Beta software.

 

Also, I have to agree with Andavari that MS's method of locating "program" uninstallers for beta software is currently not appropriate.

rant over

 

Other uninstall: That's not really viable, since you wouldn't have the right uninstall files anymore, which can be fairly system-specific. Once you destroy those files, you're in a fairly bad state.

Beta tailoring: The Hotfix Uninstaller detection method, regardless of beta status. That's why I just sent MrG an email just now per his PM - we'll try to straighten this out for people. Assuming there was a beta flag or detection method, there would still be a significant level of user pain if the RTM uninstall/rollback folders for IE, WMP, or other update.exe client were deleted.

 

What's the specific criticism as regards program uninstallers? I suspect that you and Andavari are raising slightly distinct points, and knowing the specifics of your concern makes it easier for me to address it if possible.

 

Cheers,

-Z

[krit86lr]

Other uninstall: That's not really viable, since you wouldn't have the right uninstall files anymore, which can be fairly system-specific. Once you destroy those files, you're in a fairly bad state.

That is true in some cases. I know that is true with IE7 Beta 3, but it wasn't so with Beta 2. Like I said I haven't read the release notes for WMP, I suppose now I will. I'm interested in knowing how critical it is.

What's the specific criticism as regards program uninstallers? I suspect that you and Andavari are raising slightly distinct points, and knowing the specifics of your concern makes it easier for me to address it if possible.

 

Simply put, in my opinion the program uninstallers should be in the programs folder with that specific program. I also would like to add that I warn people quite often not to use the "hotfix uninstaller" option in CCleaner if they have a downloaded SP2, and or IE7 Beta 3.

 

I think that the SP2 uninstaller is the next issue to be addressed in regards to CCleaner.

 

Cheers,

Kristin

[Andavari]

Simply put, in my opinion the program uninstallers should be in the programs folder with that specific program.

 

Ditto.

 

This thread isn't going to get anywhere trying to solve MS issues and CCleaner issues via us regular forum members - it's needs to be done via the developers. I'm done with this thread!

[krit86lr]

This thread isn't going to get anywhere trying to solve MS issues and CCleaner issues via us regular forum members - it's needs to be done via the developers.

 

I know, but I'm always up for a good debate. I'm a bit curious as to why a MS person is trying to modify CCleaner though? It's a bit bizarre.

[zachdms]

I know, but I'm always up for a good debate. I'm a bit curious as to why a MS person is trying to modify CCleaner though? It's a bit bizarre.

 

This is one of the top issues end users of the Windows Media Player 11 beta are having. I owe it to those users to do due diligence to find the best meaningful solution available. I can certainly hack around what CCleaner is doing here, but after I contemplated that for a while I realized it's probably not the best solution. I'm writing other packages that would be afflicted by this problem too down the road.

 

*shrug* There's just a concern here that needs to be resolved - fans of "Delete Everything Possible From My Hard Drive!" may love the current CCleaner behavior, while users of the IE/WMP betas have been very shocked to realize the net effect of that lil' checkbox. This has been one of the top ~3 complaints or so for both betas, which frankly was pretty stunning.

 

We'll work together to make nice and figure out some better solution. <3