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razz

An open letter to Piriform Moderators and all other members

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I would like to clarify something and I sincerely hope you will take the time to read this.

 

I received a message that stated I should not have posted my uninstaller topic (https://forum.piriform.com/index.php?showtopic=48545)

on another forum ( https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/651205/what-uninstallers-would-be-on-the-top-2-or-top-3-list/ ). In the past, on another topic, I had done so and was informed that I was wrong in doing so.  At that time with that particular topic I understood the points made about posting on another forum and I agreed that I should not have done so.  Because I was wrong, I apologized at that time.

 

In this particular case, I do not agree that it was a problem and thus I did not think it was wrong.  My reasons are as follows:

 

(1) This topic is asking Piriform members for their opinion on uninstallers.  The key here is "their opinion".  In other words, I'm certainly not expecting anyone to spend time on researching anything in order to gather information.  All I wanted to know is if anyone is using a good uninstaller (or had used one in the past), other than Revo, to just tell me the name of that particular uninstaller.

 

(2) I posted this topic on Piriform in the evening on July 7th. I had one reply from Andavari.  With no other posts, 3 days later I decided to post on Bleeping Computer (the evening of July 10th.).  Especially being 3 days later, I posted with a clear conscience because I did not see this as an insult to Piriform, nor an insult to Andavar, nor a violation of any unwritten forum rule.  Andavari had posted one reply with the name of an uninstaller and thankfully pointed out that I may not wish to use it due to the company history.  I just wanted more uninstaller recommendations, thus my decision to post elsewhere.

 

(3) In this particular case, I strongly feel the recommendations on one forum has nothing to do with recommendations on another.  I could have posted on 20 forums in this case, just asking for a name of an uninstaller that they would recommend.  What is the harm in posting this on 20 forums?  Again, no research to be done, just a name of an uninstaller that they are using or have used.

 

I seriously hope that you can see my point in this case.  If the consensus on this forum is that I am no longer wanted as a member on Piriform, I will pack my bags and leave.  I hope this will not be the consensus, but I will certainly not stay where I am not wanted.

 

Thank you for your time.

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razz I've just been over to Bleeping Computer to find your posts/threads. (I see you post as razz3333 over there)

 

As you say, there is no 'rule' about asking questions on different forums, I guess the issue here might be they are basically copy and paste type questions you do which are the same on both thread starters. 

 

Anyone finding them might wonder why you don't let folk know you are also asking elsewhere (with a link) It then stops them spending their valuable time searching for info for you and giving you answers that you have already received on another forum. Some members also see it as bad forum etiquette

 

I also see after reading here..

 

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/648992/help-google-makes-me-a-criminal-sex-pervert-btw-im-a-74-yr-old-woman-an-act/page-2?do=findComment&comment=4279375

 

it almost seems that you are passing on your backup imaging advice omitting to mention that only hours previously you hadn't even done one.

 

https://forum.piriform.com/index.php?showtopic=48466&page=2&do=findComment&comment=284731

 

Sometimes asking questions that can be answered by doing the searching yourself will be answered like this.

 

https://www.wilderssecurity.com/threads/is-wot-web-of-trust-a-good-or-bad-browser-add-on.393225/

 

You are still welcome here razz, no one has said any different, just be aware that internet forums are read by everyone, so perhaps trying out some of the apps yourself sometimes for your app program might give you a better overall experience instead of just asking other folk all the time.

 

You cannot beat first hand experience sometimes :)

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My point seems to have been missed.

 

What I am saying is this: in this particular case, me posting on two forums asking for recommendations on uninstallers, should not be an issue - i.e. it should not be frowned upon.  I just wanted to know if anyone is using (or have used) a good alternative to Revo Uninstaller.  Like I said, I (or anyone) should be able to do this on any number of forums.  In this case, I believe it's totally ethical.  The idea is to get as many opinions as possible.  What possible difference does it make that I asked the same question on another forum (or 200 forums).

 

If you and others still think this is not ethical, in your opinion how long a period of time must pass before you would consider it's OK to post elsewhere - 2 weeks, 2 months or 2 years or never?  You must agree, there MUST BE a certain length of time that it will not be frowned upon by those that would be frowning in the first place.

 

Hazel, you said "Anyone finding them might wonder why you don't let folk know you are also asking elsewhere (with a link) It then stops them spending their valuable time searching for info for you and giving you answers that you have already received on another forum."

 

In this case, your thinking is flawed.  It should make absolutely no difference what people replied on other forums.  Again, it should be clear that in this case, no research is required.  Just the name of an uninstaller program that they use or have used that they consider good,

 

It should be noted that if I was worried about posting a duplicate question on more than one forum, I would have used a totally different username.

 

I would be interested in knowing if there is any member on this forum that agrees with me.  In this particular case, I really think that you need to think hard about the points I've made.  You may find that in this case, my point is quite logical.

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razz you can see things however you want to, It's your perspective after all :)

 

Me, I happen to think that it's you who is missing the point. You sometimes post questions about the same subject within hours of each other on different forums and have done it a few times (another example)

 

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/646196/can-tdsskiller-be-used-for-on-demand-rootkit-scans/

https://forum.piriform.com/index.php?showtopic=48247

 

I know you want to produce your program of suggestions about software and routines to use razz, but don't you think you owe it to potential users to actually set up a test machine and try lots of apps out yourself instead of just relying on the opinions of  some forum posters? Let's face it on some forums you will just get the opinions of a handful of folk who perhaps have no experience of any other app of the type you are querying about, apart from the one they have always used.

 

As to my thinking being flawed... at least my opinions are my own and gained through using and testing lots of software. That's what Macrium, Shadow Defender and Sandboxie come in handy for.

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I fully concur with Hazels view. I would also suggest that unless you have extensive knowledge on the programs that you are going to recommend to others, that you give up this project and leave it to the experts. 

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There isn't anything I should need to add over and above the many reasons I tried to point out previously as to why making duplicate posts on more than one forum at the same time isn't a good idea ...

 

https://forum.piriform.com/index.php?showtopic=48275&do=findComment&comment=283395

 

... and there isn't any difference at all between your recent duplicate posting and the previous one.

 

You have volunteer members on two forums giving of their time to provide you with help without either forum being aware that they could quite likely be giving of their free time simply to duplicate answers you've already received. I even suggested a more sensible way to glean info from more than one forum ...

 

 

A more thought out way to research a subject would be to have asked the question on here, and if you weren't convinced you had enough information, then to have moved to another forum with the same question but accompanied by an explanation that you had already asked this at Piriform, providing a link back to your question and the given answers here, and then let those other forum members decide as to whether they could provide you with something new.

 

It doesn't even come down to a case of how much time has to pass before you ask the same question on two forums as you've had your duplicate posts running "live" more or less together on both forums.

 

And to be realistic, if a couple of years had passed your first post would be dead and buried and no one would notice or care, but in this case that doesn't apply does it.

 

You state above replying to hazel ...

 

 

In this case, your thinking is flawed. It should make absolutely no difference what people replied on other forums. Again, it should be clear that in this case, no research is required. Just the name of an uninstaller program that they use or have used that they consider good,

 

It's your thinking that's flawed razz as you cannot possibly know as to whether a reply you receive has been given off the top of someone's head or if they've spent a lot of time making sure they don't give you advice which could cause you harm. And that takes research.

 

I explained quite clearly in that linked to topic that any decent forum member on any forum will not simply dish out advice without knowing it's reliable and safe. I know for sure that no one here does.

 

We don't recommend or link to software without knowing for sure that it hasn't changed in some negative way and just as importantly, that any site linked to hasn't changed in some negative way as to cause harm. That takes a little research and research takes time.

 

If you added a "please do not research any of the answers you give" to your posts (which you don't), you probably wouldn't get many reliable replies. Just the opposite in fact because software changes all the time, sometimes taking on unwelcome passengers, and we've seen the same thing happen to once reputable sites as they change drastically by teaming up with "questionable" partners to raise revenue.

 

No razz, to think that no one researches even the simplest request about software is flawed thinking. As already said above, you cannot know how much time a forum member has put into what appears to be a straightforward and simple answer.

 

And in the case of "copy and paste" posting, you can have no idea how much members time has been wasted on both forums by their "researching" a duplicate answer.

 

If any member, new or regular, wants to duplicate post on more than one forum, then I'll repeat more or less what I said in that other topic ... if I was aware of that, I for sure wouldn't respond to that topic in any way, other than to point out to the other members that the topic is a "copy and paste" effort appearing on more than one forum. They could then be aware that they could be wasting their freely given time.

 

 

 If the consensus on this forum is that I am no longer wanted as a member on Piriform, I will pack my bags and leave. I hope this will not be the consensus, but I will certainly not stay where I am not wanted.

 

There aren't any comments in either this topic or the other I mentioned above which even vaguely suggest anyone is thinking like that, and it's the farthest thing from my mind.

 

But like any community, there are always unwritten rules as well as written ones, and these usually arise over the years as certain practices are recognised as being counter productive and usually time wasting.

 

We can't make a forum rule about wasting members time as the definition of that is just too broad a subject to pin down. But we can point out to members of the community that something they are doing could potentially waste the time of members (here and elsewhere). And that's exactly what we tried to do in this case.

 

And being an unwritten rule, there's nothing for a moderator to enforce so we can only respond by making sure we try to advise someone about the potential consequences of, in this case, duplicate posting. And the potential consequences of carrying on with that practice, ie having little or no response from members to future topics, or, no one giving a damn either way.

 

So the choice is entirely for the individual member to make. Heed well meaning advice or disagree with it completely and do what you feel you are justified in doing. And the other members will make their free choice as to whether to react to it or not.

 

And I'll finally say that I believe there were sufficient reasons laid out in the other topic as to why this isn't a good practice, with a sensible and realistic suggestion given as to how to make it an acceptable one. I feel this topic should never have came about at all.

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I know I'm the noob moderator here and I've freely admitted several times this was my first forum and by a very large percentage, my only forum.

So I'm going to be a fence-sitter on this argument as I see both sides being presented.

 

@razz, although unwritten, it is frowned on to double post across forums, I personally can't see why but in reality I don't see it as such a huge issue.  (this is just me, just saying)

so like it or not razz, you just have to accept it as so and move on.  it's like Maths at school, you don't have to understand why, just remember the formulae and get the right outcome.

 

@mods, my spin on it boils down to, frowned on or not, why not throw out a large a net as possible on your problem to get a better chance of catching a response?

surely anybody giving up their time to offer advice does so on a volunteer basis out of the goodness of their heart.  if they withhold advice because they find the same question on another forum then that's entirely up to them.

 

@razz, I think the consensus is, if you do it, make that plainly obvious on each forum with crosslinks and an explanation as to your reasoning perhaps.

 

OK, get out your big sticks and let me have it! :)

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surely anybody giving up their time to offer advice does so on a volunteer basis out of the goodness of their heart. if they withhold advice because they find the same question on another forum then that's entirely up to them.

 

No big stick mate.   :)

 

But that's the point I highlight isn't it. Without a link back to the other forum and topic, folk on both forums have no idea about the other topic and are therefore giving advice out of the goodness of their heart which has quite likely already been given.

 

If I recommend a piece of software on here, I check out the current version of that software and if I don't have it I download it and install it under Returnil to check it out properly. I also thoroughly check out any download site I link to to make sure it won't cause harm due to recent changes.

 

I could be going to those lengths while a member on another forum is doing exactly the same.

 

If you think that an exaggeration I would be happy to find old posts of mine where I tell posters that I've actually downloaded and tried out the software I'm recommending and it's perfectly safe, free and with no catches.

 

I'm sure I'm not alone in checking out software and sites before recommending, and that's the time and effort that's being wasted here.

 

Providing links is a forum etiquette not practised by everyone any more, but there are mods and members on here and elsewhere who still do that as a matter of form, and these have to be safe and the only way to do that is research them first. And that takes time, sometimes quite a lot of time.

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totally agree Dennis, no argument here towards your points.

I do see how that is frustrating.

 

for me it simply comes down to, using this post as a reference, if razz posts in two forums,  I would still give advice.

if I later somehow found out he asked the same question in another forum, would I be annoyed - no as that's his prerogative, and would I have still offered advice - yes as that is my prerogative.

 

perhaps if this area of forum etiquette? posting? is controversial, there should be rules/guidelines drafted?

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Well everyone has had their say on this, and it seems like it's best to close the thread now.

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