Moderators Augeas Posted June 2, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 2, 2011 Can I put in a plea to get rid of the Gutmann overwrite options? I know Gutmann has been discussed to death in these forums, but it's well into 2011, and Gutmann is still with us. It's a method to secure !990's Winchester disk technology against an event that has never been shown substantively to take place (i.e. the interpretation of overwritten data). I dare say that some users blindly following the Gutmann path weren't even born before it was obsolete. Removing Gutmann would save code, save users' time and disks, and show that Piriform at least know what they are doing. Grasp the moral high ground. (This is not a thread to discuss the merits of Gutmann. A search will reveal enough of all that.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_B Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Andavari Posted June 2, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 2, 2011 +1 Yeah get rid of it. I've always wondered if it actually even worked correctly, meaning it would be done in a flash compared to a simple 1 pass which I know works as confirmed by Recuva. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators DennisD Posted June 2, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 2, 2011 + another 1. Good suggestion Augeas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winapp2.ini Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 I support this. winapp2.ini additions thread winapp2.ini github Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ishan_rulz Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 +1 Simplicity is hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators hazelnut Posted June 3, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 3, 2011 +1 Support contact https://support.ccleaner.com/s/contact-form?language=en_US&form=general or support@ccleaner.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroozer Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 +1. I certainly agree that Gutmann is passe. And I never use NSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuttiFrutti Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Unfortunately I can't agree in the terms there wouldn't be need for overwrite files/folders/diskdrives Ok it may be an old fashion technique use Gutmann but certainly better than leave the not yet overwritten files on the surface just there they are. Myself always uses the 7 passes setting, another choice would be DOD as I don't trust only one pass is enough. Further on I believe there are things to win by doing this in get rid of problems before make clean install on drives. Much can affect an installing process to stall like malware, corruption & failures in MBR to name a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_B Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Further on I believe there are things to win by doing this in get rid of problems before make clean install on drives. Much can affect an installing process to stall like malware, corruption & failures in MBR to name a few. Totally disagree. A non-over-write format and half minute partition creation should eliminated any malware influence and allow a clean installation with uncorrupted MBR. In my view the only conceivable benefits of an over-write (which need be ONLY SINGLE PASS) is that after the clean installation has experienced use (and abuse) :- any file recovery by RECUVA or its ilk will only resurrect files deleted AFTER the install ; RECUVA etc results will not tantalise with the possibility of seeing the files that pre-existed the install ; RECUVA etc results will not threaten with the possibility of resurrecting malware that pre-existed the install ; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Fast Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Having Gutmann doesn't use much coding at all. I say leave it for now. What does it hurt? Most users won't be using it, but for the ubber paranoid, it is peace of mind. Why take it out? Sure, most people don't worry about their confidential data falling into the wrong hands. But the more precious your data is, the more you would worry. At this point, it isn't about prolonging the life of the drive, but rather eradicating all data in a totally 100% un-erasable way using any method (electron microscopy) etc... Just my 2 cents worth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Augeas Posted June 16, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted June 16, 2011 Why get rid of it? Because it's pointless and irrelevant. I can't think of an analogy, except your pc waiting ten minutes at bootup to let the valves warm up. You don't have valves? You don't have Gutmann's disk coding either. I want Gutmann! You don't have Winchester disks. I want it! You were never supposed to run all 35 passes anyway. I want it! Gutmann said it wasn't relevant in 1996. I want it! The problem it addresses has never been shown to exist. I want it! I realise two things. That like drowning witches and kittens, and rubbing that cheap Chinese plastic statue on top of the one-arm bandit, people are unfathomable beyond any reasoning. And, as much as it irritates me, Piriform probably won't get rid of Gutmann. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Andavari Posted June 16, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 16, 2011 What does it hurt? Turn it on and leave it on for lets say at least two years, use it several times each day, then get back to us in the Hardware forum area about that failing hard disk. I personally will sometimes use the simple 1-pass in CCleaner (and in another program I also use which integrates in the shell) but anything more than that is rather pointless and a waste of time, especially when things are in the MFT area you'll never be able to get rid of - short of barbecuing your hard disk over a plasma torch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Fast Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Turn it on and leave it on for lets say at least two years, use it several times each day, then get back to us in the Hardware forum area about that failing hard disk. I personally will sometimes use the simple 1-pass in CCleaner (and in another program I also use which integrates in the shell) but anything more than that is rather pointless and a waste of time, especially when things are in the MFT area you'll never be able to get rid of - short of barbecuing your hard disk over a plasma torch. What do you mean by never get rid of? If you format the drive & clean it externally (USB connection), then the MFT should be a clean MFT without any prior data, right? I realize if you do it from within Windows, the MFT still contains files, but if you erase a totally blank drive, it should be gone, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Fast Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Why get rid of it? Because it's pointless and irrelevant. I can't think of an analogy, except your pc waiting ten minutes at bootup to let the valves warm up. You don't have valves? You don't have Gutmann's disk coding either. You don't have Winchester disks. You were never supposed to run all 35 passes anyway. The problem it addresses has never been shown to exist. True, I don't have Winchester disks. But Gutmann hasn't been shown not to work, correct? Running all 35 passes isn't meant for drive life, it is meant to be used on a drive you are disposing of, anyway. If you run a business, you can never be too safe with customer data. Why would it hurt to leave Gutmann in for someone that wants to be sure their data is gone? Would you feel safer if a company was disposing of their customer drives with them running 1 pass, or 35? Do you want to risk that someone with the right know how can run the right data recovery program & pull it all up, simply because you only ran 1 pass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroozer Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 If you run a business, you can never be too safe with customer data. Is it possible any commercial enterprise using Piriform products possesses data with a higher sensitivity level than the US Department of Defense or the National Security Agency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winapp2.ini Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Is it possible any commercial enterprise using Piriform products possesses data with a higher sensitivity level than the US Department of Defense or the National Security Agency? Wal*Mart! winapp2.ini additions thread winapp2.ini github Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ishan_rulz Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 LulzSec or Anonymous will get you. Simplicity is hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_B Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I realize if you do it from within Windows, the MFT still contains files, but if you erase a totally blank drive, it should be gone, right? I would guess that even under Windows if it is formatted FAT32 there is no MFT to contain any files Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
login123 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Can I put in a plea to get rid of the Gutmann overwrite options? ... +1, yep, get rid of it. I recommended it long ago, but it causes much more foofaraw than its worth, I guess. Anyone who really needs data wiping (financial advisors, doctors, hospitals, lawyers) knows by now how to achieve it. Well, except maybe for the millions of copiers that are resold, and they won't bother with it anyway, like HERE The CCleaner SLIM version is always released a bit after any new version; when it is it will be HERE :-) Pssssst: ... It isn't really a cloud. Its a bunch of big, giant servers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winapp2.ini Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Maybe the next piece of software from Piriform is CCleaner: Xerox Machine Edition winapp2.ini additions thread winapp2.ini github Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
login123 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Maybe the next piece of software from Piriform is CCleaner: Xerox Machine Edition Saw something on TV a while back where a copier representative said that they do offer a wiper software, but it is extra and costs a lot. The CCleaner SLIM version is always released a bit after any new version; when it is it will be HERE :-) Pssssst: ... It isn't really a cloud. Its a bunch of big, giant servers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Augeas Posted June 17, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted June 17, 2011 But Gutmann hasn't been shown not to work, correct? This is disingenuous. If you consider that one pass overwrite is sufficient, then 35 passes will of course 'work'. The point is partly that 35 passes is 34 too many, and even more damning why are we advocating a method which has no relevance to the disks we're using? Why would it hurt to leave Gutmann in for someone that wants to be sure their data is gone? Because it encourages a falsehood, that this method has relevance when it doesn't. Would you feel safer if a company was disposing of their customer drives with them running 1 pass, or 35? I would feel safe if a company offered a certified (single) overwrite, which CC doesn't. I would not feel confident in a company's competance if they advocated Gutmann. Do you want to risk that someone with the right know how can run the right data recovery program & pull it all up, simply because you only ran 1 pass? You said that 'Gutmann hasn't been shown not to work'. I (and many published papers) say that a single pass overwrite hasn't been shown not to work either. You didn't comment on Gutmann's statement that his method was irrelevant on (the then) current disks, in 1996. What I dislike about the Gutmann method is not that it uses multiple overwrites, anyone can wipe his or her disk space forever for all I care. It's the completely irrational practice of running a process on a disk which was designed for another era. Why do people run a process designed for low-density floppy disks on their highly complex very high density hard drives? It's technical cobblers and we know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Fast Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 I would guess that even under Windows if it is formatted FAT32 there is no MFT to contain any files Alan, I could be incorrect, but I do believe that FAT32 DOES have MFT. But FAT32 possesses only ONE copy, wherein NTFS possesses 2 of them. NTFS is capable of restoring the known good copy, in the advent of the other failing, hence the reliability of it. How can you fathom a file system with no Master File Table to index all the locations files have to be stored? Do you think files magically jump around on a disk, not knowing which sectors are empty, or where they are at? Haha! I could be wrong though, so google it to be for sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_B Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Alan, I could be incorrect, but I do believe that FAT32 DOES have MFT. But FAT32 possesses only ONE copy, wherein NTFS possesses 2 of them. I think not. Microsoft confuse us with their tricky Smoke and Mirrors, [RANT] where smoke is FAT32 and you cannot see clearly and NTFS is Mirrors (they boast of a "MFT Mirror File") and what you see is not reality [/RANT] FAT32 has no MFT but it does have duplicate FAT. I knew the details decades ago but Google has a better memory than me ! ! ! This site is very informative http://www.ntfs.com/ntfs_vs_fat.htm Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts