Returnil - Free

[DennisD]

I think that any user on this forum could ask ANY question, no matter how small, about a software and

another member would try to help using good clear instuctions. Also no one should ever feel pressured into using a piece of software just because everyone else seems to be.

You're absolutely right Hazel, and I hope my comments weren't misconstrued to mean something they didn't.

 

The guys on here, including yourself, are nothing short of amazing, as I know from my own experience.

 

Anyone asking even the most basic question gets the help and advice they need, but there are undoubtedly a great many more who never ask a question for fear of it being deemed a stupid one, and I feel quite strongly that a lot of people would benefit from programmes like Returnil if they understood what they could and could not do with them.

 

This is probably one of the best Forums there is, and it never ceases to amaze me how people get the most complex problems sorted out, and it's that wealth of Knowledge and experience I think which must make a lot of folk think their question is so basic that they don't ask, and in the process miss the opportunity of something from which they could benefit.

 

I have the greatest respect for all the guys on here, but sometimes you're knowledge is scary, and I mean that in the nicest possible way.

 

Anyway, I hope no ones misread my comments as being in any way critical, as that was the farthest thing from my mind.

[DennisD]

I think it may be a good idea to make another observation about Returnil for the benefit of anyone wanting to give it a go, but not too sure.

 

The point I want to make, is that the System Protection and the Virtual Partition are two completely separate and different functions.

 

In my case, I skipped mounting the Virtual Partition on install because no matter how many drives or partitions you have, the Virtual Partition is mounted on your Operating System Partition, and if you mount this, the only way I can see to get rid of it is to uninstall and reinstall the programme.

 

Unmounting the Virtual Partition does not get rid of it.

 

The System Protection is the only feature I use for the reasons I've said, and I have it configured to boot inactive so I have the choice to activate it or not.

 

Hope this helps.

[Coldmoon]

...In my case, I skipped mounting the Virtual Partition on install because no matter how many drives or partitions you have, the Virtual Partition is mounted on your Operating System Partition, and if you mount this, the only way I can see to get rid of it is to uninstall and reinstall the programme.

 

Unmounting the Virtual Partition does not get rid of it.

 

Hi,

Thanks for the interest in Returnil. Please feel free to ask any questions you have and I will be more than happy to provide answers as quickly as possible. Please send us your feedback as well.

 

This is true, but you can delete the VP, back it up, transport it, etc. Please be sure to dismount it before attempting to delete it however as well as make sure you have backed up any data you stored in the VP.

 

We are currently working on a new program that will make a more robust use of the VP technology and will not be limited to the %s as is the case in RVS itself.

 

hazelnut said:

One of my pet hates is downloading a new piece of software only to find that the help file is suitable for someone who works on a space project or it assumes the the user already knows all about the software ( in this case virtualization)

 

I totally agree, though we have done our best to include as much information as possible, there is always room for more if it helps the user. We did not know all the questions before creating the User's manual during the public beta and are still looking for more questions we can help provide answers for.

 

Our first step has been to update our FAQ page with some basic questions from our discussions at Wilder's. If you have commentary and/or suggestions for making the manual better, please do not hesitate to contact me directly, post to this thread, by PM, etc. Our goal is for simple and targeted solutions, so voice your opinions...

 

We can't fix it if we don't know about it...

 

hazelnut also had this poiniant observation:

What would be so hard about a software manufacturer giving basic examples of what happens when you do a certain thing with their software?

 

We cannot know how every user will try to use the software, so cannot give detailed examples without knowing what is important to you, and more importantly, what is important to the majority of users. This is why the manual is not as comprehensive as it could be. But as said above, we want to improve it, so let us know what you want...

 

The other side of the coin is to know what ways you think are best for presenting this information...

 

----

With Kind Regards

Mike

[hazelnut]

Hello Coldmoon and welcome to the forum

 

Your software returnil has created a lot of interest, and it is good to see software developers coming down to grass root level!

 

One of the points I made about examples was because vitualization is quite a new concept for a lot of people. The common questions you seem to be asked (as I am sure you have noted) are things like what happens to the anti virus updates in this imaginary space, and how do I put things in and out of it, what happens to email attachments.

These type of questions are asked because they tend to form the core basics of a users needs.

 

Cater in the helpfiles for a minority and they may be all you get, cater for the majority with good basic info and that is who you may get.

 

I have found that by using the words "for example" followed by a real scenario with graphics if possible, always seems to stick in the brain better.

 

Anyway Coldmoon, look forward to having a look at your new version.

[Coldmoon]

Hello Coldmoon and welcome to the forum

 

Your software returnil has created a lot of interest, and it is good to see software developers coming down to grass root level!

 

One of the points I made about examples was because vitualization is quite a new concept for a lot of people. The common questions you seem to be asked (as I am sure you have noted) are things like what happens to the anti virus updates in this imaginary space, and how do I put things in and out of it, what happens to email attachments.

These type of questions are asked because they tend to form the core basics of a users needs.

 

Cater in the helpfiles for a minority and they may be all you get, cater for the majority with good basic info and that is who you may get.

 

I have found that by using the words "for example" followed by a real scenario with graphics if possible, always seems to stick in the brain better.

 

Anyway Coldmoon, look forward to having a look at your new version.

 

Hello hazelnut,

We have been having a lively discussion about these questions and more at Wilder's Security. We have been extremely appreciative of their feedback during the Beta and continue to have an on-going conversation that Piriform members may find a useful resource:

 

"Returnil": http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=174636

"Returnil - Keeping Good Changes": http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=178162

"[Official Release] Returnil Virtual System 2007": http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=178081

 

I look forward to everyone's questions and will do my best to reply as quickly as possible.

 

Mike

[DennisD]

Hi,

Thanks for the interest in Returnil. Please feel free to ask any questions you have and I will be more than happy to provide answers as quickly as possible. Please send us your feedback as well.

 

Mike

Hi Mike,

 

It's a pleasure to have you come to the forum, and you've probably gathered that I'm a fan of Returnil, but not, unfortunately, a fan of all its features.

 

I think the System Protection is pretty amazing, but I just did not feel comfortable with the Virtual Partition, in fact I didn't like it at all.

 

I gave it a good try, and from a not too technical point of view, (which is the only one I'm qualified to give) the VP seemed to make my HD work as if it was severely fragmented, and an analysis by windows defragment tool gave the same visual information.

 

An awful lot of noise and an awful lot of red.

 

Unfortunately, that first impression was enough to put me off the VP permanently.

 

And unfortunately again, you don't usually get a second chance to make a first impression

 

I'm sure I've read somewhere that even a fresh install of Windows OS can be spread across the drive, and I was really concerned that the VP had been mounted on free space in and around the Operating System, as opposed to being on free space adjacent to it.

 

If that was a completely inaccurate, or even stupid observation, I make no apologies, because not knowing any better, that was the fear I had.

 

I have to be honest, and say I would rather physically partition my drive (which I did a couple of weeks ago), or buy a second drive, than mess about with a Virtual Partition.

 

I hope my comments don't offend, as I think an honest description of a new users impressions are probably more use than no feedback at all.

 

I look forward to seeing you on here again, and good luck.

 

Dennis

[Coldmoon]

Hello Dennis,

Please forgive the late reply.

 

Hi Mike,

 

It's a pleasure to have you come to the forum, and you've probably gathered that I'm a fan of Returnil, but not, unfortunately, a fan of all its features.

 

Thank you for the warm welcome and the feedback is welcomed.

 

I gave it a good try, and from a not too technical point of view, (which is the only one I'm qualified to give) the VP seemed to make my HD work as if it was severely fragmented, and an analysis by windows defragment tool gave the same visual information...

 

First, use of the Virtual Partition is an option and was included as a convenience for those without an alternate partition or knowledge sufficient to create one on their own. We strongly recommend that users create and use an alternate partition for data storage.

 

Next we recommend a complete defrag of your HDD before installing Returnil. This is for two important reasons:

 

1) Your system runs best with a defragmented HDD

 

2) RVS runs best when the HDD has been defragmented

 

Why?

 

Returnil clones your System Partition "on-the-fly". This means that only the content which is required for the user to do whatever they are doing is cloned in memory. If the content that is required to create this content is unfragmented, then RVS will perform that much more efficiently...

 

You can defragment the Virtual Partition when it is mounted as you would any other partition.

 

What is more inportant is that Returnil's System Protection will work whether you use the Virtual Partition or not. The System Protection/Session Lock feature is the main mission for Returnil and the Virtual Partition is a convenience and/or practice tool for those who are not yet ready to create a real logical partition on their HDD.

 

Mike

[DennisD]

Hi Mike, nice to see you back again.

 

Just to answer your points, I did defrag the hard drive before I installed Returnil, and subsequently mounted the Virtual Partition, and I still got the effects I explained.

 

I have wondered since, (and bear with me here), if the VP isn't recognized by the Operating System in the same way as normal drive space would be, because when I removed the VP, and analyzed the drive again, it wasn't fragmented at all.

 

The visual info the defrag window gave me was a huge single block of red to the right of the usual blue/green display.

 

This was obviously the VP, which the defrag tool thought was severe fragmentation, and the drive, from the sound of it, was treating it as such.

 

I'm probably talking out of my backside again, but I can only tell you the impression the VP gave me, and I take your point that it is an optional tool as opposed to the main function of Returnil.

 

The System Protection feature is absolutely superb, and I accidentally gave it a pretty good test last week after having to do a OS reinstall.

 

Returnil was one of the first applications I installed again, followed by the removal of the pre-installed Norton Security Suite.

 

I removed that with the Symantec removal tool, and I forgot that Returnil was active at the time, only realizing when the Removal Tool had already started, and you can't stop it.

 

When it was done, and it removed an awful lot, I re-booted, to find Norton still there, as if nothing had happened.

 

So it works perfectly in both directions, and for the folk who know even less than me:- if you delete stuff, it's still there when you reboot, just the same as if you install stuff, it's gone when you reboot.

 

Thanks for a great application Mike, I use it all the time and IMHO is a fantastic tool.

 

Dennis

[Coldmoon]

...Just to answer your points, I did defrag the hard drive before I installed Returnil, and subsequently mounted the Virtual Partition, and I still got the effects I explained.

 

I have wondered since, (and bear with me here), if the VP isn't recognized by the Operating System in the same way as normal drive space would be, because when I removed the VP, and analyzed the drive again, it wasn't fragmented at all.

 

The visual info the defrag window gave me was a huge single block of red to the right of the usual blue/green display.

 

This was obviously the VP, which the defrag tool thought was severe fragmentation, and the drive, from the sound of it, was treating it as such.

 

Dennis,

I never thought of looking at it this way but your comments helped me to see what you mean. The Virtual Partition is a file with special properties. When it is mounted, Windows will see it the same way it sees a real logical partition or alternate drive (logical HDD partition, USB stick, etc), but when it is dismounted, Windows will see it as just another large file on your system.

 

When you create the Virtual Partition it is empty. IOW, When Windows sees it as a file, it sees a large file with allot of empty space, so interprets this as fragmented space. This is really an issue in how the information is presented to the user and the fact that there will be a necessary period of adjustment required for developers of defragmentation solutions to catch up with new technologies.

 

HTH

Mike

[JDPower]

if you delete stuff, it's still there when you reboot, just the same as if you install stuff, it's gone when you reboot.

Is that the same with the registry, if you were to delete a bunch of vital reg entries should everything be fine on reboot? (still not got round to trying this yet but will do asap)

[DennisD]

Is that the same with the registry, if you were to delete a bunch of vital reg entries should everything be fine on reboot? (still not got round to trying this yet but will do asap)

I've never directly deleted any registry stuff, but I think my accidentally trying to uninstall Norton while Returnil was active may answer your question as a lot of reg entries were deleted.

 

I was watching them disappear as the Symantec removal tool did its thing.

 

When I rebooted, everything which appeared to have been removed was still there, and I had to remove Norton again.

 

That's as much as I can say JD, but I've no doubt Mike will be having a look back here again, and will probably confirm that Returnil System Protection "clones" the entire OS which I would think includes the registry.

[JDPower]

That's as much as I can say JD, but I've no doubt Mike will be having a look back here again, and will probably confirm that Returnil System Protection "clones" the entire OS which I would think includes the registry.

Cheers, I'm not planning on killing my registry, just curious as to how far the protection goes in respect of vital files/reg entries.

Perhaps if Mike answers he could tell me if you did something to kill Windows with protection enabled should it, theoretically, be able to restart ok?

[Coldmoon]

Is that the same with the registry, if you were to delete a bunch of vital reg entries should everything be fine on reboot? (still not got round to trying this yet but will do asap)

 

Hello JDPower,

Not that you would expect someone to do this in a normal use of their system, but the answer is yes if you have System Protection/Session Lock ON when you did it. Just reboot and the changes are gone. Just be aware that this also works in reverse, so make sure your system is clean before using the System Protection feature.

 

Mike

[JDPower]

Hello JDPower,

Not that you would expect someone to do this in a normal use of their system, but the answer is yes if you have System Protection/Session Lock ON when you did it. Just reboot and the changes are gone. Just be aware that this also works in reverse, so make sure your system is clean before using the System Protection feature.

Cheers Mike

[Humpty]

Wireless keyboard but wired mouse here.

 

If I do a cold boot (hit the power button) to turn the pc on my with Returnil protection auto activated my keyboard driver isn't loaded.

 

If I reboot from protection mode to protection mode then the driver is loaded.

 

No probs with a wired keyboard.

 

This occurs on both the Vista Ultimate and XP Pro hard drives.

 

No big prob as I will just boot into windows and then slip into virtual mode until a fix comes along.

 

Any betas around that may fix some driver issues?

[Coldmoon]

Wireless keyboard but wired mouse here.

 

If I do a cold boot (hit the power button) to turn the pc on my with Returnil protection auto activated my keyboard driver isn't loaded.

 

If I reboot from protection mode to protection mode then the driver is loaded.

 

No probs with a wired keyboard.

 

This occurs on both the Vista Ultimate and XP Pro hard drives.

 

No big prob as I will just boot into windows and then slip into virtual mode until a fix comes along.

 

Any betas around that may fix some driver issues?

 

Hello Humpty,

What model Wireless? Also, did you recieve any error messages? Thanks and we will look into this ASAP.

 

Mike

[Humpty]

MS wireless keyboard.Wireless mouse stuffed up a while ago.

 

No error message and no keyboard is showing in device manager when it's not working.

 

Vista has a "superfetch" feature which supposedly loads your most used apps into memory at boot.

 

With Returnil running everything in memory would that kinda make the superfetch feature redundant and I could turn the sf feature off in services?

 

I'll give it a try a bit later on but I thought that you may have prior knowledge on that aspect.

[Coldmoon]

MS wireless keyboard.Wireless mouse stuffed up a while ago.

 

No error message and no keyboard is showing in device manager when it's not working.

 

Vista has a "superfetch" feature which supposedly loads your most used apps into memory at boot.

 

With Returnil running everything in memory would that kinda make the superfetch feature redundant and I could turn the sf feature off in services?

 

I'll give it a try a bit later on but I thought that you may have prior knowledge on that aspect.

 

Thanks, development is setting up specific testing. And yes, if Protection is ON then updates to the SuperFetch would be lost. If you are happy with what is in the SF now, and it has useful performance, then I would suggest keeping it...

 

Mike