Hardware Problem Developing In An Old Computer

Computer Help and Discussions Hardware
61

just to clarify this Static Discharge Routine... (cool phrase by the way)

we aren't talking about static electricity as in 'rubbing shoes on carpet, touching sisters arm, hearing satisfying yelp' sort of thing are we, cause that is simply not what a PC can do.

the power LED coming on when pressing the power button AFTER the PC is shut down AND the power cable removed is just the residual charge in the motherboard and PSU's capacitors.

the power button completes the circuit between pin 15 and ground on the ATX power supply going into the motherboard and tells the PC to turn on.

the capacitors (think of them of batteries, or flow regulators) will also self-discharge after about 20 seconds, but again, only when the mains is disconnected.

the static jolt you can sometimes get when touching your PC is the static charge built up in YOU and finding it's way to earth via the PC's metal casing which is grounded.

you'll sometimes get a tech support guru to tell you to turn off your PC, disconnect it from the mains, then 'turn it on', that's what he is doing - making sure the unit is really OFF with no chance of anything being kept alive in memory.

62

Dennis, what a memory. Most impressive. Thanks for those links, old memories, eh?

And you are quite right, its a looong topic. I very much appreciate the kind help so far. I had no idea that the

thread would run so long, and certainly don’t want to be a bore. But I find this investigation intriguing. I’m

just thinking that maybe some other hapless windows xp user is having a similar problem and will maybe stumble on

this. Probably not, probably they have all gone over to the dark side, win 10. :)

To make it easier, here is a summary:

The computer just sort of locks up.

  • Sometimes once or twice a day, sometimes not for weeks at a time.

  • the lockup usually occurs when awakening the computer from standby, then getting on the net.

  • When it occurs, the desktop window and the system tray stop responding to the mouse or keyboard.

— but Process Explorer and HWmonitor still respond normally …

— except if you try to get them to do something outside their own window, such as shut down the computer.

  • Sometimes after a restart check disk runs, always on D: (recovery partition), always no bad sectors.

  • The mouse and keyboard are OEM, PS2 type, the graphics processor is integrated in the MB

what has been done so far:

There is a screenshot of some tests actually running in post #51

  • ran chkdsk and sfc /scannow, OK.

  • ran avast boot scan, OK.

  • Manually deleted the recycle bins in safe mode, OK.

  • monitoring w/ procexp and hwmon for heat, CPU, RAM use, OK.

  • ran speccy for heat & CPU, OK

  • ran intelburntest, got hot, 147 deg f, but didn’t lock or freeze.

  • ran gsmartcontrol, the 2 minute test, attributes and health report were OK.

  • ran HDTune, no bad sectors, health report looked OK.

  • ran cleanmem, made no difference.

  • ran mta’s touch test, sort of hot but no blisters. :)

what has not been done yet:

  • replace the CMOS battery

  • run Microsoft Windows Memory Diagnostic

  • run Puppy for 2 or 3 days to see if lockup occurs

  • replace firewall or AV. Firewall is now the chief suspect.

  • use a non PS2 mouse and keyboard.

  • check hardware contacts for oxide, do a thorough cleaning.

  • run that static discharge test

Recent observations & actions:

  • Dennis, the lockup did occur on xp on the newer computer.

— It dual boots 7 and xp from different HDDs using the BIOS boot menu.

  • the lockup seems to correspond with Avast automatic updates. . .but,

— At that same time acs.exe, an outpost process, jumps to near top of the CPU usage list.

  • I ran a “repair” on Avast. Soon after I did that the Outpost popup appeared.

  • I found a setting in Avast under settings > special scans > screen saver scans which seems to indicate that

Avast will run a “loop scan” ?? every 3 days. This corresponds roughly to the recent frequency of the lockups. So

I’m thinking, the locked window is the desktop and systray, maybe it’s that Avast setting?

It’s 99.9 percent sure that hardware / heat isn’t the problem.

Its also 99.9 percent sure the problem is with Outpost, especially since popup that appeared. Declining that popup may

have fixed it. But if the lockup occurs again, I intend to first shut off that 3 day setting in Avast, then if

need be replace outpost, then if need be replace Avast.

Any other suggestions?

63

- the lockup usually occurs when awakening the computer from standby,

This is purely again from memory and even a link to go with it.

You use standby on both machines?

I recollect from a lot of years ago that coming out of standby could cause various issues with XP. One I experienced in 2007 could have been caused by this, and that is the dreaded DMA mode reverting to PIO. Read from post# 8 which I've linked to.

https://forum.piriform.com/index.php?showtopic=12333&do=findComment&comment=84636

As I was using standby at that time I looked around for other issues that it could cause and there were a few in way of things not working as they should such as monitors not getting a signal, computer not being able to wake at all, or sundry things causing a premature wake up.

There was a complete list of the glitches waking from standby could cause with XP and they were listed at Kellys-Korner. Sadly that page isn't any more ...

http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/?f

Needless to say, I have never used standby since then and never will. It's well within the bounds of possibility that waking from standby could set up a glitch that isn't instantly evident. Between your two rigs, standby is one of the common denominators.

If your freeze returns I would try kicking standby into touch for a while maybe. Gotta be worth a shot even if it's a long one.

And this other idea is me just thinking out loud really.

--- but Process Explorer and HWmonitor still respond normally ...

Why is that?

If every house in a street was constantly being burgled except for one, I might start looking at that one house as maybe belonging to the burglar. Maybe Process Explorer is carrying a little guilt here?

That elusive needle might be right under yer nose as they say. If it was my computer I would get rid of it for a while if only to eliminate it. Seems odd that one program in particular is always working within it's window during this incomplete lock up.

Waking from standby might just be setting up something to be triggered by something else. With computers anything is possible.

Probably very long shots squire, but I think ideas are getting towards the exhaustive stage and I would try absolutely anything that's easy and painless to try. Not to mention completely free from financial pain.

:)

64

OK.

Edit:

Thanks very much for all the suggestions.

All in all, it was a comprehensive shakedown, for sure.

All those diagnostics showed that the hardware is probably OK. Big help, that was.

Same for the software ideas, although I haven't tried many of them yet.

I'll keep trying each suggestion and give it enough time to see if it works.

It's time now to let this topic rest a little bit.

You guys have gone above and beyond the call of duty to help. :wub:

I'll post back here eventually with the long term results, whatever happens.

Thanks again.

65

FYI: This is it, I think.

To quote the venerable rridgely, "I hate computers". :P

https://forum.avast.com/index.php?topic=194742.0
and 
https://forum.avast.com/index.php?topic=193385.0

Probably the fix is DennisD's recommendation, revert back to an earlier version of Avast. Will post back when I know for sure.

edit: I remember Andavari also said to check on Avast compatibility. & I did, their sites say it is OK w/ win xp. I did, they say it is. ??

66

The lockup problem seems to be fixed. This computer has been running without lockups for about 10 days now.

The problem Seems to have been a file called acs.exe, part of Outpost free firewall 6.5.1. Outpost firewall uses acs.exe as part of it’s host protection. To view the components monitored by acs.exe, right click the tray icon and go to:

show/hide > host protection level optimal > known components > view list.

There is some more information here:

http://www.outpostfirewall.com/forum/showthread.php?28170-Ver-6-5-1-%282009%29-Recently-Locking-Up-on-Win-xp-sp3

Note that nowadays there are files called acs.exe that go with different software & hardware.

Acs.exe was monitoring over a thousand items, mostly exe files. Some were associated with software that hasn’t been on this computer for years, some had no associations.

I went through the list and removed the obviously useless entries, then a few of the not so obvious ones. Probably removed about 100 items and everything kept chugging along nicely. Soooo, it seems to be fixed.

I cannot say how much I appreciate the suggestions offered here, they were all very helpful. They helped rule out the most serious hardware and software issues. I would certainly have gotten bogged down on that without some experienced guidance.

After that it just came down to rooting around in the haystack and investigating anything that looked odd.

So many thanks again. You folks are the best.

67

Soooo, it seems to be fixed.

Ooooh, I hope those words don't come back to bite you.

Quick, sacrifice a chicken and read it's entrails or something... :lol:

68

Fingers crossed you've fixed it squire, and the main credit goes to yourself for sheer tenacity.

69

Fixing computers can be a pain, however at least you found a solution. 10 days without issue is a good sign.

Just last night after restoring a Macrium Reflect image my USB mouse didn't work, the driver wouldn't load no matter what I did. Then I thought, I'll try something stupid simple by unplugging the USB mouse and plugging it back in and it worked. I like stupid simple solutions like that!

70

Topic started 10 november 2016. Almost 3 months. Good grief.

Delays were mostly due to the way I had to work on it ... catch as catch can, then wait several days to see if it was fixed, then start again.

But i would never have gotten off the starting block without the hardware & heat diagnostics, so thanks again.

I ran a bunch of diagnostics that I didn't post about (was afraid the topic might get too long.) but thanks very much for those too.

71

OK Mr Tenacity, has it tripped out at all?

That makes it sound like you have a pot smoking computer.

72

Hi Dennis.

Yes, locked up once, but I know why. Avast was scanning an exe before letting it run and I clicked “abort”. That forced a restart.

About that acs.exe file mentioned in post #66, in total I deleted 471 obsolete entries. Since that, old HAL here will run for 10 or more days with no problems. And there have been no unexplained lockups so probably that was the issue. Must eventually do those hardware cleanup tasks though.

Thanks for asking.

73

You're welcome matey.

For all I know I could have the same or worse problem than you have now as my computer has never ran for that amount of time. I close it down every night when I'm done with a CCleaner auto shutdown shortcut in my quick launch bar.

It's never been in standby since it tripped out 9 or 10 years ago, has never been in hibernate mode, and never ran for more than one day, so if you do the same you might have no problem at all. :lol:

74

The reason I leave it on is just plain laziness. :P

It boots up fast enough, but the time to clean out the junk, then update everything, then start Powershadow is more than I want to spend every day.

Now, for what it's worth, that old Outpost firewall, recommended by Rridgely years ago I think, is still really good for win xp. Its still available at Filehippo, and I'm 99.9 percent sure that version 6.5.1 (2009) will install without a 'net connection. Agnitum, the authors, sold to Yandex, so updates are not available but they aren't needed for the standalone free firewall.

For windows xp dinosaurs like me, that little bit of information may be the most useful part of this whole topic. That and the references to those hardware assessment tools. If any of these are considered competitive software, please feel free to delete any of all of this post. I don't think they are, they all do different things, but it's not my call.

Those were CCleaner, Speccy, HWMonitor (temperatures), HDTune Pro (free trial), Microsoft memory tester, Cleanmem, PassMark BurnInTest (be careful gets hot), GPU-Z, GSmartControl, HWinfo32, IntelBurnTest. Also a little gem called Netpeeker, (15 day trial). Its a firewall, can be locked down pretty tight to show if anything is getting past your installed firewall.

Some others were recommended but they weren't needed. After running this list hardware seemed OK. I still have the complete list if someone is interested.

75

For other XP-ers, I should mention that before this lockup issue started, there was no problem waking any of my xp computers from standby. The power options are set to turn off the monitor at 5 min, turn off the HDD at 10 min, and go to standby at 15 min. Hibernation is not enabled.

When it works the HDD turns off but the motherboard is still powered up.

Very rarely the HDD will stay on, but always the computer wakes OK. Also, the lockup had no apparent connection to standby.

76

I tried standby mode near the beginning of my XP usage, but stopped using it when it would cause issues. I only log off, but I don't keep my computer running all day or night when I'm not using it.

login123 you weren't the only one trying to track down gremlins. I found mine, and it was SUPERAntiSpyware which after one of its program updates last year would randomly cause a BSOD, and other very weird abnormalities. Whatever went wrong with it I think it was perhaps related to a driver for it always running in the background even though I had disabled the SASCORE service for it. Maybe something to look into if you also have it installed because some security software may state "XP compatible" but I sometimes wonder.

77

Just for info.

On my old XP machine I run daily for 14 hours per day, I have never left it on at night in all those years. It gets turned off completely.

Same with my other OS's, even my Win 10 has fast startup turned off (so it's a real shutdown then when I select shutdown.)

78

even my Win 10 has fast startup turned off (so it's a real shutdown then when I select shutdown.)

I also do a real shutdown of my PlayStation 4 when not in use instead of putting it into rest mode since it can alleviate some random crashing in some games, and especially Sony's crash happy PS4 Media Player app.